p1 says:
since you are a biologist, I have a video to show you
p1 says:
Esto es verdaderamente excitante

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7k2BoGwh900

p1 says:
the narrative is in spanish but the doctors and patients are in english
p1 says:
I dont understand this phenomona
p1 says:
maybe you can explain it
P2 says:
watching
p1 says:
ok
P2 says:
there are articles available about her case, I will take time to read it, but in general, because of my education in science, I won't believe she can see during the procedure, what she is telling could well be her experience (she is not lying), but it does not mean everything she describes is actually what she saw
P1 says:
I am just curious if this is true to have a out of body experience from a bology point of view
P2 says:
my close interpretation would be like others' she can hear those things and her brain interpretes things and add on to visual memories.
P1 says:
but it has been verified that her observation is correct
P1 says:
why would she have the feeling of leaving her body?
P1 says:
like floating up in the air and seeing what had happened?
P1 says:
Is this explaned in biology?
P2 says:
the experience is the feeling, is what your brain believes, not actually is happening at all, that's what science believes, though it is always possible there is something there science does not know anything at all yet
P1 says:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pam_Reynolds%27_NDE
P1 says:
and this one is in more details http://www.iamshaman.com/reports/article.asp?faq=13&fldAuto=79
P1 says:
i see
P1 says:
but if this is just a feeling from the brain
P2 says:
yes, there is explaination, it is because of lack of oxigen or whatever, causing her brain to create illusions, this happens to a lot who were recovered from death, that's why it is called near death experience
P1 says:
how does she see all these things going on when she is laying down on the surgery table?
P2 says:
ln lab it is induced, people tell similar stories when tested in lab
P1 says:
but if this is just a illusion, she cannot see clearly what was going on in the surgery
P2 says:
read my respons carefully, she did not see anything, her brain interpretes the input from hearing
P1 says:
i see
P1 says:
so you believe that she can hear
P1 says:
but how about the electric toothbrush (the brain saw)
P1 says:
it is obvious that she cannot see the brain sawer when she is in the stage
P1 says:
but she recalled clearly what it is looked like
P2 says:
if you close your eye and guess from what you hear, there is always a chance you got something exactly right, it is amazing if this something is totally hidden, but hidden or not does not matter when you are guessing
P1 says:
so you say that she is just guessing what the brain sawer looks like
P1 says:
and the floating out of body is just an illusion created by the brain?
P2 says:
her brain is guessing, but she did not lie, she is not guessing, she only tells what she believes she experienced, that's what her brain dictates.
P1 says:
and I was reading all these NDE stories and they are so consistent that many people have the same out of body experience and then went through a tunnel
P1 says:
I see
P2 says:
people with near death experience often report something like that, along with seeing a bright light, that's what you see in movies
P1 says:

P1 says:
they all report floating out of body, flying thru the tunnel and then see the bright light, and then meet their dead relatives there
P1 says:
I was so curious and I was reading all these different NDEs online they are all like that
P1 says:
this is so interesting
P2 says:
this is something the science does not know much, but looking from what have learned from animals and humans in the past, unless something out there totally unknown to science, no scientist believes she can float her soul (if any) out
P1 says:
well, some scientists suggest that soul is an energy field, which floats and leaves the body when the body is not working any more
P2 says:
it is interesting, you don't learn this in class, I used to read a lot about almost anything, so I know what it is about
P1 says:
i see
P2 says:
saying it is an energy field is like saying nothing
P2 says:
it does not explain anything at all, those kind of concept are often used by psydo scientists
P1 says:
but if this is just a brain illusion as suggested by the scientist, why would all people seeing the same thing, like the tunnel and bright light?
P1 says:
so there must be something other than a brain illusion, because if this is really an illusion, it should not be as consistant as what these people reported
P2 says:
when brain lacks oxygen, majority testers experience this, as for why it is light and tunals but not others, no clue yet
P1 says:
what happened to those testers/
P1 says:
/
P1 says:
so, they are all put into a room with lack of oxegan and they have the NDEs?
P2 says:
not totall true. if you press your eye you will see light, what you really see if signal sent from eye, since the corresponding part in brain only interprets light, then you see light, though there is no light at all. This means there is restrictions on illusions
P1 says:
i see
P1 says:
so there are only certain kinds of illusions available
P1 says:
usually when the brain shut down, the illusion happened?
P2 says:
illusions is linked with personal experience, people see god if she or he is a believer, or he may see UFO or others kind of things. BTW, religion is also an illusion, in my view, but largely reinforced by people, knowingly or no knowingly
P1 says:
i see
P1 says:
so those tunnel, bright lights and dead relatives are all illusions created by the brain
P1 says:
and the observations she made during the surgery are just some guessing created by the brain
P2 says:
not all testers, like in any scientific research,if it happens to most, then the conclusion is set, though there is always a possibility that the trueth is among minorities
P1 says:
i see
P2 says:
that's the explaination by most scientists in this field
P1 says:
these NDEs stories are interesting
P2 says:
you know science, nothing is conclusive
P1 says:
these witness always say that they see a relatives and then they were pushed by to the bodies and they realized that they are lying in the hospital beds
P1 says:
so, the conclusion is that scientists do not believe in the out of body experience
P2 says:
one thing interesting is most dead relatives were still in the same cloths they have upon death
P1 says:
really?
P1 says:
the same hospital clothes before they died?
P1 says:
a blind lady never saw the world before had a NDE and she was able to make observations and see things accurately
P2 says:
the conslusion is: there is no scientific explaination of out of body experience. All explainations out there are not scientific, it is either faith based, or it is conclusion based on guess or speculations with not scientific ground
P2 says:
when accident happens, unless the patient stays in hospital for years, then in relatives' mind, the patient wears in that cloth as in daily life.
P2 says:
I won't believe a blink lady who'd never seen the world can see things, if you say she can see things accurately, that is a proof, but does she see all things accurately or only some?
P2 says:
blind not blink lady
P1 says:
i mean there is a blind lady
P1 says:
she cannot see when she was born
P2 says:
I made the mistake, not you
P1 says:
but then she saw things and described things accurately when she had NDE
P1 says:
and she described the out of body experience
P1 says:
there is also another video describing her experience
P1 says:
so there may be a proof
P2 says:
if she can describe things after NDE things she cannot before that, that is evidence of something is going on. what exactly did she describe?
P1 says:
when she was born, she was blind so she never saw the world before
P1 says:
then she had NDE, she saw herself, she saw her wedding ring
P1 says:
and she saw her husband and everything
P1 says:
then she was able to described things accurately
P1 says:
and correctly
P2 says:
I don't care what she condition was, I need to know what she describes after NDE to see if that's something unusual
P1 says:
let me send you the video
P2 says:
I need to know what she said, not what the story was told, to be accurate, interpretation by others will ruin the fact
P2 says:
OK
P1 says:
yup
P1 says:
she was talking in the video about herself
P2 says:
if she can only describe things she can learn from hearing and touching, that is not proof, she has to tell something only vision can tell
P1 says:
well, even if this is something that only vision can tell, the others who can see would have told her already
P2 says:
anything that can rule out other possibilities, I am not saying she is lying, but if the factor is messed with other factors, there is no way to tell what the truth is, even if the truth is out there
P1 says:
so it is up to your own belieft
P2 says:
yes if you are not a scientist, no if you are scientist, science is not something you like or not like, it has nothing to do with believe, it has to be provable.
P1 says:
but how do you proof the NDE experience without going thru death?
P1 says:
it is impossible to prove
P1 says:
like soul is an energy field that travels in speed of light
P2 says:
there is a science role: if something can be explained by many theories, science will take the simplest one
P1 says:
and the tunnel
P1 says:
this is also not provable
P1 says:
i see
P2 says:
it is funny to say it is impossible to proot but at the same time saying it is energy field and travels in speed of light. How do you know (I don't mean you, I mean those who claim it that way)
P2 says:
to proof not proot
P2 says:
prove
P2 says:
I don't know the spelling anymore
P1 says:
when you read Pam's article carefully, you will see
P1 says:
say, for example, if you are feeling out of body, floating up in the air seeing yourself in bed, do you believe that it is true?
P1 says:
then if you see your dead grandmom in the light, do you believe that it is true?
P2 says:
If I had the NDE, I would believe it, personal experience, but then, as a scientist, I won't believe the explaination out there, fact is one thing, explaination is another
P1 says:
so, how did science explain when somebody died, what heppened to that somebody?
P2 says:
most of the explainations are guessing, like the saying: soul is energy field and travles at speed of light? How do you know? it is speculation and guess with no proof, theh people say it is imporssible to proof, how the heck do they know it is energy field and travels at speed of light if there is no proof?
P2 says:
science is always getting close to truth but never claims that is the totall truth, it is perfectly fine not being able to explain something, it is actually an aspect of science: being able to prove wrong, only faith based things cannot be wrong.
P1 says:
i see
P2 says:
if there is something there science cannot explain, I won't take another full explaination with no proof. I cannot simply believe the conclusion without knowing the process of getting there.
P1 says:
i see
P1 says:
but if this is a personal experience, you will believe it no matter science believes it or not
P2 says:
wrong, science never said what is experienced is not there, only won't accept the explaination, scientific explaination is: it is illusion, so if it is illusion, I will truely believe it because it is my brain who is telling me. But illusion is illusion.
P1 says:
i see